And hello to you, and welcome to the Richard Nicholls podcast, the personal development podcast series that's here to help inspire, educate, and motivate you to be. The best you can be. I'm psychotherapist Richard Nicholls, and today you'll learn all about dependence and codependence. And if you are ready, we'll start the show.

Hello there. You beautiful people. How are things with you? I hope you've been able to cope with all the depressing news that's around. It's hard to switch off, isn't it? Not impossible, just hard. But do find alternative ways of keeping entertained, please. There's more things to do than soak up the news. I know I'm probably preaching to the choir here, aren't I?

I mean, the fact that you're listening to this right now means you're not listening to the news, which is great. I know a lot of you listen on your drive to or from work, or at least many of you used to so many folk work from home nowadays, which might be nice for you, might not be, I dunno. I've been working from home for three or four days a week now for years, so I'm quite used to it and I quite like it.

It means I can walk outta my office and go downstairs straight into the kitchen and make the evening meal. 'cause before I worked from home as much as I do, 'cause it used to only be like twice a week, now it's four days out of five. The evening meal was always made by whoever got home first. It was either the me or the wife.

Now it's pretty much me every night now. 'cause my commute is like 10 seconds. But. Oh, I've quite liked it. I get to provide something for my wife and it means she can do a workout straight after work for 45 minutes or whatever without feeling rushed. And it's a nice feeling to provide for her because I love her.

She's important to me, and I see her as an extension of myself in some respect after 30 years of being together. So if she's happy, I'm happy. Now, that's not a problem, is it? Hmm. Could be if it's exaggerated a bit. In extreme cases, that could be a symptom of codependence.

Although not a personality disorder, as such, codependency is still a big issue, often part of a bigger problem. But it's sometimes where people start with their therapy. 'cause like I so often say, nothing's a problem unless it causes one. Gambling isn't a problem until it is. Alcohol isn't a problem unless it is. Because some people they can afford to gamble.

In theory, that's not a problem. Some people can drink every day and it's not a problem to them 'cause it doesn't do any harm. They don't get drunk and they stay fairly healthy. But their next door neighbour could drink the same amount and it turns him into a angry man who smashes windows. That's a problem and that's always worth remembering.

Something can look harmless from the outside, but if it chips away at your wellbeing, then it's a problem. And even codependence isn't always problematic. But if you don't feel as if you are good enough, unless you are looking after someone, if your sense of self is so fragile, that unless you can see evidence in what you do for others, that you're a good person, it feels as if you are worthless.

Then that's a problem.

Why does a codependent person buy two copies of every self-help book? One to read and one to pass on to someone who really needs it? That's sometimes a sign of codependence or dependence. Dependent personality disorder does overlap a little bit with codependence, but when it gets to the level of a personality disorder, it's not just about one person.

It's about everyone in your life. Someone with dependent personality disorder needs constant reassurance from other people. They need their friends and family to make all their decisions for them, and they feel massively isolated and lonely when they're on their own. Whereas Codependence is usually about one person in particular.

Usually it's in a relationship and it can make it quite dysfunctional because it's when both people depend on it. 'cause it's one thing to be a Florence Nightingale character and want to help people. But if you are constantly drawn towards people who seem to need help, if you feel the pull towards the vulnerable little bird with a broken wing sort of character all the time and feeling the need to step in and control their life for them, then that's not good.

If you feel guilty because you aren't helping them, even though they haven't even asked for your help, then something's not fair there. It could be your sense of self is based on the effect you have on the outside world too much. Rather than just being you, because that should be good enough whether you're helping someone or not.

So there's a sense of neediness to it. You need to be helping them, and again, that's not fair on you and it's not healthy for them if you're in a relationship with them. That's the difference between dependence and codependence.

Joan and Jeff might have a great relationship. But Jeff is constantly needing reassurance that he's doing the right thing, asking for permission to make decisions so that he doesn't feel guilt or regret if he chooses the wrong car insurance company or whatever.

Now, as long as Joan reassures him that it's fine, she trusts him, then hopefully his sense, his sort of self-esteem, I guess, can rise up. And although the two people are dependent on each other. They're not so enmeshed that they feed each other's anxiety. But if Joan says, I know what's best, let me show you what you need to do, then that could spoil what could have been a happy marriage.

Joan develops a personality type of needing to control everything, and Jeff's self-esteem gets lower and lower. 'cause he's allowed his wife to take control to make all the decisions for him. And she thinks she's just doing the right thing. 'cause she's only trying to help.

Sometimes people ask, how do I know if I'm just being kind or if I'm slipping into codependence?

And that's a fair question. 'cause on the surface they can look the same. A good marker is to ask yourself three questions. Do I feel guilty if I don't help? Do I feel like I'm not a good person unless I step in? And am I protecting them from the consequences of their choices, rather than supporting them to face them?

Because healthy caring has limits. It's about being supportive without losing yourself, like offering a lift if you are passing anyway, not rearranging your whole day and burning yourself out to make sure that somebody else is comfortable. If helping lifts you up and gives you energy that's usually healthy.

If helping drags you down and leaves you resentful, anxious, or exhausted, that's when it might be crossing into codependence. If. Codependence is a phrase that started with family therapy and substance abuse you see. Someone who was codependent was in a relationship with someone with an addiction and would describe someone who was supporting the addiction rather than supporting the person. I heard a joke once about Al-Anon rather than AA, Alcoholics Anonymous, which is there for the person with alcoholism.

Al-Anon is a support group for people whose lives are affected by other people's drinking. Anyway, the joke goes. How can you tell you're at an Al-Anon meeting? Someone spills their coffee and everyone gets up to clean it. I shouldn't laugh, but it's a painfully accurate picture because they're an enabler.

If someone else makes a mess, they feel the need to clean it up themselves. Whatever that mess might be. And the person in the mess becomes so dependent on them that they lose their sense of self, and the codependent caregiver mixes together love and pity and become so dependent on helping that they lose their sense of self, if they've ever even had on. And the two become codependent.

Everything about the enabler is about self-sacrifice. Their identity is linked to being a martyr, it's their purpose. It's where their self-worth is. So they provide rescue in order to feel needed, and if they're not needed, then their sense of self doesn't exist. They don't exist, unless they're rescuing someone.

Unless they're wanted and needed by the other person, then they feel worthless, and that's proper dangerous because what if the other person does have an alcohol problem, an addiction issue, whether that's, substances or gambling. If the helper gets their sense of self from bailing them out, covering for them, funding them, then no one's gonna get well.

Until it's pointed out by a podcast that you listen to or you stumble across an article. Jeff doesn't stand up and say to Joan, I think you make me worse, and Joan doesn't say Yeah and I think you make me worse too. Then they've go to couples counseling to sort it out and live happily ever after. But apart from therapy, what can we do once we've become aware of all of this? 'cause it is quite common, and it's not just with intimate relationships either. It can be in any relationship.

It can mean you give someone a lift to work even though it's well out of your way. I re-watched Shaun of the Dead recently. Very funny, very silly film, my sort of comedy. If you've seen it, the Simon Pegg and Nick Frost characters are codependent. Nick Frost doesn't have a job and just dosses on his mate's sofa playing video games all day, not contributing.

Simon Pegg enables it because, well, he's a mate. And neither of them can have a relationship with anyone else. And we fix this with proper boundaries, healthy boundaries. Draw a line between what is reasonable assistance and what is unreasonable. If you feel the need to help someone who's been kicked out by their partner, maybe they kip on your sofa for two weeks, but they pay for their own food and they know they've only got two weeks to find somewhere to live.

If you feel the need to go out of your way to pick someone up and take them to work, then tell them to walk to your house. Or if you drive past their house normally, then only pick them up if they're standing outside, don't wait for them. That sort of thing. And I know it's hard to stick to, 'cause it might go against your sense of self.

But if your sense of self is built around putting everyone else first, then your self-esteem is gonna soon be at rock bottom. And I know it's hard to break the habits of a lifetime, but saying No to others will mean saying Yes to yourself. And that's a far better habit. Allow other people to help them as well.

Remind yourself that you aren't the only one capable of helping. And look at other areas of your life. Look for better, healthier relationships with people. Remind yourself that you can be liked and appreciated even when you are not helping someone with something. I remember during my, during my therapy training, actually this was back in 2000, I took a job in an office, which I'd not really done before.

Before that, my only job was in a warehouse. I did office work, but I was always alone in there, and a lot of the work was done on the warehouse floor. So I blagged my way into this office job. I got the gift of the gab, told them what they needed to hear, and I talked my way into doing something I'd never done before, which was fine.

But it was at the end of this firm's contract with the, the gas board, I suppose you could call them, digging up roads. And they lost the contract and somebody else took over, which means all the staff get moved over to a different company. The vans all get their logos changed and it's business as usual just with a new boss.

And again, I told them what they needed to hear, blagged a higher position. And even though I'd only known my colleagues for a couple of months and had come in alongside them. Now I'm higher up. Not much. Just a, a bit more responsibility, a bit more clout. Not good if you've got imposter syndrome. 'cause all it does is make you feel even more of a fraud.

And nowadays, all these years later, I can look at it and see it for exactly what it was. I knew what I was doing and I clearly must have had good communication skills. I showed my abilities and got promoted. You know, that should boost self-esteem, not lower it. But I was young and I hadn't started my own therapy by then.

So I tell you all about this because until it was pointed out to me, I didn't even know I was doing this. But every time I heard somebody grumble about something. There'd be an exasperated gasp, a swear word or something at their computer. I would stand up and go over to them to see if I could help. And it wasn't until I was writing on a whiteboard and one of the other managers joked and came over to me and he held my hand as I wrote.

Like you would a 2-year-old. Would you like some help with that, Richard? No, I wouldn't. What? What you doing, mate? And he just shook his head and sat down and a few people in the office piped up. He's taking the mick outta you mate, because that's what you do. And that didn't make sense to me. That's that, that that's not true.

I refuse to believe them. It had become so ingrained in me that I hadn't noticed it. And literally within a few minutes, someone in the office said, Oh, flipping computer, why isn't it doing this properly? And I felt myself start to stand up. It was obvious that they were talking to themselves. They were not asking for anybody's help.

But someone liking me. Being thought of as helpful was such a part of who I was, that I didn't have my own sense of self without it. It's an old cliche, a message I say a lot, but it bears repeating. Look after yourself. If you can't look after you, then you're not in a position to look after anybody else. Put yourself first. It is not selfish, and the people close to you, treat you as if it is, then that's not codependency, that's abuse, that's bullying.

Showing others through your own behaviour that you deserve to be treated well will encourage them to treat you The same with respect, care, and love.

So how about we leave it there for today? As always, there is a new episode every Monday on Patreon. If it wasn't for all you lovely folk on Patreon, this podcast wouldn't happen.

So. Big shout out to everybody that's on there. There's way too many people to mention, but I've actually put everybody's name into a randomiser so I can give a few people a shout out. Let me open the window. I've got everybody's name pasted into these, this input thing, and I click randomise and I can give a shout out to have a look at these names.

Anna Heath. Hello to you, Andrew Dowbakin. Hope that's how you pronounce your name, Andrew. Tijana Mitanoski. Claire Smith. Kevin McBean. Mark, Phil Robinson, Jen, Z. Somebody who just called Z. Hello Z. Sarah Castleton. Alice Thomas, Fred Gwatkin. Hello, Fred. Long time no speak. Lee C, Abby, Paul Sheraton, Libby Reeves. Maria Pajaro, Sally McCartney, Dan, Stormzy. Stormzy, are you Stormzy? You're not Stormzy. You are a Stormzy. Anyway, hello Stormzy, Emma Mapletoft, Tessa Holkham, Karen, Holly, Jenny Rankin, Ryan Puddephatt, Anna Martins, Daniel and Stewart Wilkes. I'll leave it there 'cause I could go on forever and that wouldn't be fair, but thank you to everybody that contributes to my Patreon.

You're literally saving lives. You really, really are. So thank you. Have a super day everybody, and I'll speak to you all again very, very soon. Take care.